Clarke - Ultimate Jujitsu

Clarke

Author	Comments
jujitsu2004 Newbie 13 posts	Friday 19th March 2004 at 15:46 Everytime I read an article, e-mail, etc. concerning jujitsu, they never seem to mention Soke Robert Clarke - one of the leading, most influential figures in todays jujitsu society. Why then, if he is one of the founders of the WJJF, does he not gain more recognition? Perhaps its just the articles/mags/sites i've been reading.. i don't know. I just think he should have more recognition for the things he's done for Ju jitsu (Traditional in particular). e_B They say if you live by the sword, you die by one, if that's the case, then go get a bigger one!
andy Resident 729 posts	Friday 19th March 2004 at 16:57 the bjja split from the wjjf when rob clarke was done for fraud as he wasnt sending insurance money to the insurance companies, he just kept it or himself. thats why no one really mentions him, plus TJJ is outdated. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Dave Addict 183 posts	Friday 19th March 2004 at 21:33 Don't know rob clarke but if it's true about him keeping peoples insurance money then he's a tosser! And i personaly don't want to waste my time reading about tossers in magazines when the world is full of great martial artists who are honest and friendly people. e_b regarding trad ju jitsu it's well outdated! If your doing it coz you enjoy and it's a hobby then fairplay i wish you well. If your doin it coz you think it's deadly or a good fighting art then you need to wake up. It doesnt work in the modern arena of street fighting. You will get your head caved in. (FACT) Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
steve Resident 217 posts	Sunday 21st March 2004 at 21:33 James Blundell, Bob Clarke, Dick Morris...all instrumental in promoting Ju-jitsu late 50s to mid 70s (or what was thought of as ju-jitsu....throwing techniques utilising joint locks). Judo was well established in the UK but its competative format would not have suited many, the syllabus based 'kata' approach to teaching (complient opponent) being preferred. Not to say that it wasn't tough training, but in all trad JJ the scenario is 'knumb-skull' attacks against a trained opponent in a 'manufactured' arrangement. Karate & kung-fu also establishing in UK mid 70's / 80's but again most clubs / associations were (and still are) syllabus based learning with occasional competition in some. Belts awarded on demonstrating 'set-piece' techniques rather than 'winning against equivalent standard opponents in free competition'. Nothing wrong with the above if that's what floats your boat. Reason these guys not credited as much now is the influx of the gracie type approach to ju-jitsu, based on competative progression, sets a 'real' standard across the participants. You cannot achieve the higher ranks unless you can really do the business. With media communications as they now are anyone can watch 'real fighters' and and even without much MA knowledge see what would be effective and what would'nt. As already stated on the thread, the TMA approach is not credible any more for anything other than the enjoyable sport / art that it is. To those who enjoy TMA (and there are many more of them than train in progressive MMA / BJJ / Sub-grappling, etc) carry on and keep enjoying it, but do not be deluded into thinking it will stop you getting a kicking in a street fight cause not all street thugs are 'knumb-skulls'. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
jujitsu2004 Newbie 13 posts	Monday 22nd March 2004 at 12:03 Hmmm... some food for thought! i never knew about the fraud situation, and i've been training for over 3 and a half years. However, i have met Clarke on a number of occasions and he is a safe guy, but goes to show - one biiig f**kup like that, can change other peoples thoughts towards martial arts on a whole - myself included. As for TJJ being outdated - i can understand some aspects to this argument, however i wouldn't say it was completely outdated. It still teaches the fundamental values of discipline, and understanding - plus how to evade fighting, how to move, block and strike - so in these ways it isn't so outdated. In terms of techniques - yeh sure, many a time has myself, my sensei, and other jitsu ki realised a percentage of techniques ARE flawed, but it all depends who teaches you... my sensei mixes it up biiig stlyee, mixing TJJ with street fighting, brawling - its all knowledge - which in turn IS power. They say you live by the sword, you die by one, if thats the case, then get a bigger one!
andy Resident 729 posts	Monday 22nd March 2004 at 15:25 Can we get one thing straight here, Blocking punches doesnt work pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
steve Resident 217 posts	Monday 22nd March 2004 at 20:51 Sort of agree but it depends on what you term as blocking. Force to force i.e. stick yer arm in the way, does not work....whereas parry /deflect whilst moving or actively striking the attacking limb to disable it does if you know what you are doing e.g. trapping limb with one of your arms between its elbow & wrist whilst symultaneous striking with other above elbow. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
steve Resident 217 posts	Monday 22nd March 2004 at 20:57 I'll retract the last part of what I just said, if the opponent is a good striker (boxer) then you will struggle to symultaneously trap / strike, but it will work against a 'sluger' if you are quick enough. Steve. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
steve Resident 217 posts	Monday 22nd March 2004 at 21:26 btw the term is ju-jitsu (spelt by the Japanese as jiujitsu) 'ka' not 'ki'....ka meaning student (ki has a different meaning in MA terms to do with energy cultivation / delivery). Jiujitsu ka = student of pliable / flexible / yeilding fighting "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
andy Resident 729 posts	Monday 22nd March 2004 at 21:32 trapping doesn't work pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
steve Resident 217 posts	Monday 22nd March 2004 at 22:03 Agreed trapping to control does not work....trapping to deliver a symultaneous strike can work if you are proficient at it. In a ring with gloves on striking at the opponents face or body when he is attempting to cover may not get you anywhere....but striking his joints / weaknesses (elbow, collarbone, forearm, inside and upwards to shoulder joint) whilst trapping can be effective if fast, powerfull & accurate.....though you will probably disagree! "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
RMJA Newbie 8 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 07:15 Clark was also involved in legitimacy fraud - his black belt certificates had Rod Sacharnosky's name and Juko Ryu printed on them, without his knowledge or permission. He got sued for it. RMJA RMJA
andy Resident 729 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 13:37 I don't disagree with everything, I'm not closed minded. but you said you trap and then strike different areas as the opponent is covered up. If the opponent is covered up what exactly do you trap? pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Dave Addict 183 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 13:45 Sorry to upset you Steve but Whats all this rubbish about explaining ki energy and how ju jitsu/jiu jitsu is spelt? No one cares how it's spelt its the art that counts and trad ju jitsu is out-dated! Real life aint the Matrix or Jackie Chan films and all this trapping crap and inner energy your talking about doesnt work! The only inner force or energy i've ever built up and let out is a good fart and i'd advise you not to rely on those in a street fight, although farts are just as effective as trapping in reality. :-) You say trapping is good in certain situations and scenarios, but the fact is trapping for self protection doesnt work! Yes it is a good martial art to train in as a hobby or for fitness but it doesnt work in any real environment. Ive trained with Rick Young who is shit hot at trapping and world renound for loads of martial arts but even he and his instructor Dan Inosanto tell people that trapping aint good for real situations. Please train with your eyes and ears open to the real world, it's less painfull. Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
Dave Addict 183 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 14:02 I've never once tried to block or parry any strikes comin at me in street fights as ive been to busy throwing my own. There are three ranges in street fighting 1- initial contact be it form punch, kick(not head shots dont be silly) head-but, elbow or knee. 2- Within a split second straight into upright grappling whilst continualy striking. 3- ground fighting(a place you dont want to be)throw in the likes of biting, eye gouging and shots to the bollocks and you have the picture. Of course a fight may start at any range but in simple terms theres No time for trapping! Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
Dave Addict 183 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 14:11 Just re-read my last two posts and they sound a bit full on. I mean no disrespect to you steve just giving my penny worth to help you understand that trapping isnt effective. P.s. I've just thought of some trapping that does work and it's lethal!!!! You all know what it's like to trap your fingers in a door, well that fookin wrecks! :-) Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
andy Resident 729 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 17:26 ttt for Dave telling it how it is. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
andy is a lost cause Newbie 3 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 20:07 andy is a lost cause.....
andy Resident 729 posts	Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 21:50 thanks? pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
steve Resident 217 posts	Thursday 25th March 2004 at 19:12 Move in on striker taking underhooks / overhooks....break off / strike then clinch again = 'trapping & striking' "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i

Author

Comments

jujitsu2004

Newbie

13 posts

Friday 19th March 2004 at 15:46

Everytime I read an article, e-mail, etc. concerning jujitsu, they never seem to mention Soke Robert Clarke - one of the leading, most influential figures in todays jujitsu society. Why then, if he is one of the founders of the WJJF, does he not gain more recognition?

Perhaps its just the articles/mags/sites i've been reading.. i don't know. I just think he should have more recognition for the things he's done for Ju jitsu (Traditional in particular).

e_B

They say if you live by the sword, you die by one, if that's the case, then go get a bigger one!

andy

Resident

729 posts

Friday 19th March 2004 at 16:57

the bjja split from the wjjf when rob clarke was done for fraud as he wasnt sending insurance money to the insurance companies, he just kept it or himself. thats why no one really mentions him, plus TJJ is outdated.

pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Friday 19th March 2004 at 21:33

Don't know rob clarke but if it's true about him keeping peoples insurance money then he's a tosser! And i personaly don't want to waste my time reading about tossers in magazines when the world is full of great martial artists who are honest and friendly people.

e_b regarding trad ju jitsu it's well outdated! If your doing it coz you enjoy and it's a hobby then fairplay i wish you well. If your doin it coz you think it's deadly or a good fighting art then you need to wake up. It doesnt work in the modern arena of street fighting. You will get your head caved in. (FACT) Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

steve

Resident

217 posts

Sunday 21st March 2004 at 21:33

James Blundell, Bob Clarke, Dick Morris...all instrumental in promoting Ju-jitsu late 50s to mid 70s (or what was thought of as ju-jitsu....throwing techniques utilising joint locks). Judo was well established in the UK but its competative format would not have suited many, the syllabus based 'kata' approach to teaching (complient opponent) being preferred. Not to say that it wasn't tough training, but in all trad JJ the scenario is 'knumb-skull' attacks against a trained opponent in a 'manufactured' arrangement.

Karate & kung-fu also establishing in UK mid 70's / 80's but again most clubs / associations were (and still are) syllabus based learning with occasional competition in some. Belts awarded on demonstrating 'set-piece' techniques rather than 'winning against equivalent standard opponents in free competition'.

Nothing wrong with the above if that's what floats your boat.

Reason these guys not credited as much now is the influx of the gracie type approach to ju-jitsu, based on competative progression, sets a 'real' standard across the participants. You cannot achieve the higher ranks unless you can really do the business. With media communications as they now are anyone can watch 'real fighters' and and even without much MA knowledge see what would be effective and what would'nt.

As already stated on the thread, the TMA approach is not credible any more for anything other than the enjoyable sport / art that it is.

To those who enjoy TMA (and there are many more of them than train in progressive MMA / BJJ / Sub-grappling, etc) carry on and keep enjoying it, but do not be deluded into thinking it will stop you getting a kicking in a street fight cause not all street thugs are 'knumb-skulls'. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

jujitsu2004

Newbie

13 posts

Monday 22nd March 2004 at 12:03

Hmmm... some food for thought! i never knew about the fraud situation, and i've been training for over 3 and a half years. However, i have met Clarke on a number of occasions and he is a safe guy, but goes to show - one biiig f**kup like that, can change other peoples thoughts towards martial arts on a whole - myself included.

As for TJJ being outdated - i can understand some aspects to this argument, however i wouldn't say it was completely outdated. It still teaches the fundamental values of discipline, and understanding - plus how to evade fighting, how to move, block and strike - so in these ways it isn't so outdated.

In terms of techniques - yeh sure, many a time has myself, my sensei, and other jitsu ki realised a percentage of techniques ARE flawed, but it all depends who teaches you... my sensei mixes it up biiig stlyee, mixing TJJ with street fighting, brawling - its all knowledge - which in turn IS power.

They say you live by the sword, you die by one, if thats the case, then get a bigger one!

andy

Resident

729 posts

Monday 22nd March 2004 at 15:25

Can we get one thing straight here, Blocking punches doesnt work pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

steve

Resident

217 posts

Monday 22nd March 2004 at 20:51

Sort of agree but it depends on what you term as blocking. Force to force i.e. stick yer arm in the way, does not work....whereas parry /deflect whilst moving or actively striking the attacking limb to disable it does if you know what you are doing e.g. trapping limb with one of your arms between its elbow & wrist whilst symultaneous striking with other above elbow. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

steve

Resident

217 posts

Monday 22nd March 2004 at 20:57

I'll retract the last part of what I just said, if the opponent is a good striker (boxer) then you will struggle to symultaneously trap / strike, but it will work against a 'sluger' if you are quick enough.

Steve. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

steve

Resident

217 posts

Monday 22nd March 2004 at 21:26

btw the term is ju-jitsu (spelt by the Japanese as jiujitsu) 'ka' not 'ki'....ka meaning student (ki has a different meaning in MA terms to do with energy cultivation / delivery).

Jiujitsu ka = student of pliable / flexible / yeilding fighting "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

andy

Resident

729 posts

Monday 22nd March 2004 at 21:32

trapping doesn't work pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

steve

Resident

217 posts

Monday 22nd March 2004 at 22:03

Agreed trapping to control does not work....trapping to deliver a symultaneous strike can work if you are proficient at it. In a ring with gloves on striking at the opponents face or body when he is attempting to cover may not get you anywhere....but striking his joints / weaknesses (elbow, collarbone, forearm, inside and upwards to shoulder joint) whilst trapping can be effective if fast, powerfull & accurate.....though you will probably disagree! "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

RMJA

Newbie

8 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 07:15

Clark was also involved in legitimacy fraud - his black belt certificates had Rod Sacharnosky's name and Juko Ryu printed on them, without his knowledge or permission. He got sued for it. RMJA

RMJA

andy

Resident

729 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 13:37

I don't disagree with everything, I'm not closed minded.

but you said you trap and then strike different areas as the opponent is covered up.
If the opponent is covered up what exactly do you trap?

pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 13:45

Sorry to upset you Steve but Whats all this rubbish about explaining ki energy and how ju jitsu/jiu jitsu is spelt? No one cares how it's spelt its the art that counts and trad ju jitsu is out-dated!

Real life aint the Matrix or Jackie Chan films and all this trapping crap and inner energy your talking about doesnt work! The only inner force or energy i've ever built up and let out is a good fart and i'd advise you not to rely on those in a street fight, although farts are just as effective as trapping in reality. :-)

You say trapping is good in certain situations and scenarios, but the fact is trapping for self protection doesnt work! Yes it is a good martial art to train in as a hobby or for fitness but it doesnt work in any real environment. Ive trained with Rick Young who is shit hot at trapping and world renound for loads of martial arts but even he and his instructor Dan Inosanto tell people that trapping aint good for real situations.

Please train with your eyes and ears open to the real world, it's less painfull.
Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 14:02

I've never once tried to block or parry any strikes comin at me in street fights as ive been to busy throwing my own.

There are three ranges in street fighting 1- initial contact be it form punch, kick(not head shots dont be silly) head-but, elbow or knee. 2- Within a split second straight into upright grappling whilst continualy striking. 3- ground fighting(a place you dont want to be)throw in the likes of biting, eye gouging and shots to the bollocks and you have the picture. Of course a fight may start at any range but in simple terms theres No time for trapping! Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 14:11

Just re-read my last two posts and they sound a bit full on. I mean no disrespect to you steve just giving my penny worth to help you understand that trapping isnt effective.

P.s. I've just thought of some trapping that does work and it's lethal!!!! You all know what it's like to trap your fingers in a door, well that fookin wrecks! :-) Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and his Black and white Catttt. Early in the mornin when the nah nah deedle dat da do!!!!! Ah fuct it right up

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

andy

Resident

729 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 17:26

ttt for Dave telling it how it is. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

andy is a lost cause

Newbie

3 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 20:07

andy is a lost cause.....

andy

Resident

729 posts

Tuesday 23rd March 2004 at 21:50

thanks? pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

steve

Resident

217 posts

Thursday 25th March 2004 at 19:12

Move in on striker taking underhooks / overhooks....break off / strike then clinch again = 'trapping & striking' "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i