a little help, please

Author	Comments
Fenon Regular 25 posts	Monday 23rd February 2004 at 21:36 True but its good if your in a black alley, since you don't need your eyes to fight, it might also be good to mix Wing Chun while standing and BJJ while down.
andy Resident 729 posts	Monday 23rd February 2004 at 22:22 wtf! does wing chun teach you to see in the dark? pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Fenon Regular 25 posts	Monday 23rd February 2004 at 22:50 Yeah one thing they are shown is how to fight blind, in fact there is a blind Wing Chun martial artist. They go by the touch on they're arms and use that to attck the neck.
Wave Newbie 3 posts	Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 12:35 Hi The original post was for a small woman who was to receive 4 hours of training. That is the equivalent of say 2 or 3 classes at a MA School. How competent is anyone after 2 or 3 classes? Yes, if you drill something long enough you will become proficient. I have never argued that point. The original question was 4 hours of training, not drilling a MA. It was also for a big strong man on top of a small woman. In that scenario she stands little to no chance. FYI, I have taught many SD courses for NHS Trusts, Police Forces, MA's, Joe Public, Doormen. With no prior skills, teaching techniques is likely to get the person injured or worse. If after a 4 hour SD Course, the attendee leaves thinking they are more able to defend themselves, then I have failed. If they leave much more aware of their surroundings / potential troublespots / avoidance / awareness etc etc, then I have succeeded. Do not make the mistake of applying your skill level to that of an untrained person. As a BJJ MA for example, your skill level is extremely high, even when compared to most MA's. To expect an untrained person to be anywhere near as competent is expecting too much. Hope that helps clarify
Alien Newbie 20 posts	Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 12:46 How many years of Wing Chun training would you require to fight blind?? This is stuff from the movies. Can't say I have ever seen a Wing Chun specialist win an MMA event, not that I am saying this is a bad Martial Art. What you have to remember is you need to teach a women basic self-defence in a short time in order to build up confidence and give them a chance of escaping an attack. We can't make them mini Jackie Chans in four hours! As stated before a little knowledge can still be a good thing. Eye attacks and biting can be taught to almost anyone add this to some basic BJJ ground work and you give the women a head start in an attempt to escape. If time add some elbow and knee strikes and this may and I mean may give the women a chance to put off an attacker. I think some people are missing the point of the first question. "hell ain't a bad place to be" "hell ain't a bad place to be"
Bassmonger Resident 198 posts	Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 14:36 I find that the best way to avoid getting raped is to be pig ugly. Works for me, anyway. Failing that- a bit of BJJ for technique, win chun for x-ray vision, and McDonalds for biting. "I like my jiu-jitsu the same way as I like pubic hair on a lady" DEFEATED IN AL
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 16:45 Furry muff, in 4hrs you ain't really gonna learn much, but show them a couple of moves to practice in their own time, between classes, and they will get somewhere. I'm quite sure a woman afraid of getting raped will put in some of her own time. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Fenon Regular 25 posts	Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 22:08 Yeah I guess, but if a woman really wants to learn to defend herself a few lesson aren't going to help her again someone with any training in combat.
Robsco 1319 posts	Wednesday 25th February 2004 at 07:26 True, but not many rapists are training fighters. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Branni Newbie 11 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:33 The only decent thing said on this topic was by bassmonger. Very funny. :-) Andy i know you train under Royce Gracie and He and his bro Rorian are making plenty of money from the "rape safe" video, but come on has Rorian ever been raped by a man? The only people who know what its like to be raped are the poor victims (women) out there! Pick a subject that no one has bothered with (which is terrible) and make plenty of money from it! Rorion is a smart business man! How can you say Brazilian jiu jitsu is the answer to stopping a woman being raped by a man(who may be untrained himself) especially if she is untrained? Your being blinded by the art! There are untrained men and women out there that would rip you a new a**hole and bite your face off regardless of how many hours you put into martial arts! The answer is simple rape will never be prevented unless all women walk round within an electric forcefield(we all know this is pur fantasy) to frazzle all the sick twts who do such horrible things. I think women should stick to animal instincts and rip scratch and bite the sh*t out of the attackers, as the chances are the attacker will do anything to rape the poor victim. Real life is real life and not what you see in the UFC or in a dojo/club. I'm a huge fan of martial arts but i know turning women into technique robots won't help! " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger" " There is no moment you are m
andy Resident 729 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:49 Easy there tiger! I dont train under Rorian, of course an untrained women can't defend herself duh! I'm all for teaching what works and avoidance is the best key, but if it comes to it and the woman is on her back she needs options to help her escape, this is where BJJ comes in, i'm not talking about fancy arm bars and the like, i'm talking about learning how to stand up safely from the position and escape. Scratching will just annoy the attacker. Confidence is also key, attackers pick victims that appear weak. By giving women a few essential skills such as basic awareness, and basic self defence this gives confidence. I'd like to meet the woman who could rip me a new arse hole. now stop being aggressive and think about what i just posted. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
andy Resident 729 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:54 PS. Stop talking about people being untrained, the whole point was to find something to teach (train) the students in. Keys to self defence 1. Awareness and avoidance (never get in the situation) 2. The fence and escape (deal with stand up aggression) 3. Bjj (to learn how to escape a ground situation) pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
andy Resident 729 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:54 PS. Stop talking about people being untrained, the whole point was to find something to teach (train) the students in. Keys to self defence 1. Awareness and avoidance (never get in the situation) 2. The fence and escape (deal with stand up aggression) 3. Bjj (to learn how to escape a ground situation) pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Branni Newbie 11 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 22:24 Hope i didn't upset to many people andy i just thought i'd throw some petrol on the fire to liven things up a bit! Thats complete rubbish that untrained women can't defend themselves! Does the whole animal kingdom go and train in jiu jitsu? NO!UNTRAINED Females can protect themselves against Males. You can train as much as you want but it won't change a persons instinct when the shit hits the fan! I know all sorts of moves from thai boxing and jiu jitsu but i can honestly say i've never used them in a street fight. You have no time for techniques, it's whoever hits fastest and hardest that wins. The same is with rape do whatever to escape but leave the techniques in the dojo. I agree about trying to get up and run away and use anything that makes this possible is the best option, but natural instincts are the best forms of getting someone off you! You say scratches only make attackers angry, which is very true and thats what you want to happen! You don't want to be best mates DUH! If i scratch your eyes it will do more than tickle! As i said scratching, biting, and groin attacks are all natural and require NO SKILL so i believe the wool should stop being pulled over womens eyes just to make money! " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger" " There is no moment you are m
Robsco 1319 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 22:58 Yes, scratching will get the attacker angry, and obviously just make him go totally ballistic and probably kill the woman! Think about it dude! If you've got some guy on top of you, scratching and biting isn't gonna make him get off, he'll just lay some punishment down. If you have some BASIC techniques to deal with the situation and escape, that's obviously gonna be a lot better than getting the crap beat out of you. As for Rorion being a good business man, true, and so what? He's a good business man because he's teaching things that work, and helping a LOT of people in scary situations. Let's face it, if it didn't work, it wouldn't take long for word get round! And remember what Andy said, it has a LOT to do with confidence, just knowing that you can deal with situations will stop people even thinking about because of your attitude. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Fenon Regular 25 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 23:29 If scratching and biting did any good then there would be no need for self defence. Heck screw then need for fighters to have technique, they should all scratch and bite their way out of submission holds!!
Branni Newbie 11 posts	Thursday 26th February 2004 at 23:50 I will have my final word dude and say WAKE UP! i have been biten in fights and had people gouge and scratch my eyes and i can tell you truthfully in one fight i had, i was on top of a guy giving him the good news(not raping) and he bit my fingers and my chest then stuck his finger in my eye(as well as scratching) and i can tell you it didn't make me angry nor did it tickle! It fucking wrecked as fingers arent supposed to be in eyes! What would a wild animal do if you cornered it or got to close? It would chew you to bits, not do a fancy sweep or manouver! Are you trying to tell me that being biten would make you angry? BOLLOCKS! You would need a clean pair of underpants and you'd stay well away, so don't tell me it's different if a women bites a man or gouges his eyes, it's exactly the same! FLIGHT or FIGHT! You obviously have never been biten as your just following the shephard like the rest of the sheep and the shepard is Rorion Gracie. The thought of rape would soon dissapeer when the victim is taking chunks out of the attackers body and face and then starts trying to poke his eyes into the back of his skull. You live in a fairytale world if you think jiu jitsu is better than instinct for rape defense or street fighting! Yes Rorion Gracie is a very successful business man and all the credit to him! I'm as much a fan of the Gracies as anyone but the rapesafe stuff is just ripping people off. You obviously have never been involved in street problems as you think jiu jitsu is the key to success! It is in a competition, clubs, dojos and movies and especially quality of life but in the real world on the street be it fighting or rape prevention it is just another money spinner and will continue to keep the wool over womens eyes as well as yours. " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger" " There is no moment you are m
Robsco 1319 posts	Friday 27th February 2004 at 00:09 Well you waffle far too much, it's late and I can't be arsed to write an essay. Biting and scratching is not good self-defence, it is a last resort. You'll be suggesting rolling up a magazine next! --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Branni Newbie 11 posts	Friday 27th February 2004 at 00:10 FENOM we are talking about reality fights and rape defence not UFC and competition fights! You obviously no nothing about real fighting! The reason why we all train techniques is because the real stuff that works is illegal and can seriously hurt people! Plus it keeps you fit and is a hobby. Lots of people even have an ego about having a BLACK BELT. At the end of the day it only holds your pants up! Thats why it's band from all sports competitions around the world and so is eye gouging and groin strikes(hitting the bollocks)! Are these techniques illegal because they are rubbish? NO it's because they fucking hurt and can cause severe injuries! Why doesnt the animal kingdom do jiu jitsu? Because biting is real! And so is making someone blind by going for his eyes! Why do you think biting and eye gouging in the street gets worse punishment by the law than normal fighting? Because they know it's dangerous and can seriously harm someone!!!!!! The whole point of this subject is rape defense, and i'm sorry but reality wins over technique in the street! WAKE UP!!!!!!!! " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger" " There is no moment you are m
Branni Newbie 11 posts	Friday 27th February 2004 at 00:23 Robsco you need to sort yourself out! The topic is rape defense and i'm sorry to upset your little world but rape in my case deserves your so called last resort tactics which are very deserved by the attacker if he is trying to RAPE a poor inosent woman! Jump back on the Jiu jitsu bandwagon and live in dream land! If someone ever bites you in a street fight remember to shout "Thats not fair" while your nose is hanging off and see if he gives a shit! Then when you have plastic surgery invite the guy round and explain that in your jiu jitsu rule book it says biting isnt allowed! Your just another sheep following the shepard! " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger" " There is no moment you are m

Author

Comments

Regular

25 posts

Monday 23rd February 2004 at 21:36

True but its good if your in a black alley, since you don't need your eyes to fight, it might also be good to mix Wing Chun while standing and BJJ while down.

andy

Resident

729 posts

Monday 23rd February 2004 at 22:22

wtf! does wing chun teach you to see in the dark? pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Fenon

Regular

25 posts

Monday 23rd February 2004 at 22:50

Yeah one thing they are shown is how to fight blind, in fact there is a blind Wing Chun martial artist. They go by the touch on they're arms and use that to attck the neck.

Wave

Newbie

3 posts

Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 12:35

Hi

The original post was for a small woman who was to receive 4 hours of training. That is the equivalent of say 2 or 3 classes at a MA School. How competent is anyone after 2 or 3 classes? Yes, if you drill something long enough you will become proficient. I have never argued that point. The original question was 4 hours of training, not drilling a MA. It was also for a big strong man on top of a small woman. In that scenario she stands little to no chance.

FYI, I have taught many SD courses for NHS Trusts, Police Forces, MA's, Joe Public, Doormen. With no prior skills, teaching techniques is likely to get the person injured or worse.

If after a 4 hour SD Course, the attendee leaves thinking they are more able to defend themselves, then I have failed. If they leave much more aware of their surroundings / potential troublespots / avoidance / awareness etc etc, then I have succeeded.

Do not make the mistake of applying your skill level to that of an untrained person. As a BJJ MA for example, your skill level is extremely high, even when compared to most MA's. To expect an untrained person to be anywhere near as competent is expecting too much.

Hope that helps clarify

Alien

Newbie

20 posts

Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 12:46

How many years of Wing Chun training would you require to fight blind??

This is stuff from the movies. Can't say I have ever seen a Wing Chun specialist win an MMA event, not that I am saying this is a bad Martial Art.

What you have to remember is you need to teach a women basic self-defence in a short time in order to build up confidence and give them a chance of escaping an attack.

We can't make them mini Jackie Chans in four hours!

As stated before a little knowledge can still be a good thing.

Eye attacks and biting can be taught to almost anyone add this to some basic BJJ ground work and you give the women a head start in an attempt to escape.

If time add some elbow and knee strikes and this may and I mean may give the women a chance to put off an attacker.

I think some people are missing the point of the first question.

"hell ain't a bad place to be"

"hell ain't a bad place to be"

Bassmonger

Resident

198 posts

Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 14:36

I find that the best way to avoid getting raped is to be pig ugly. Works for me, anyway.

Failing that- a bit of BJJ for technique, win chun for x-ray vision, and McDonalds for biting. "I like my jiu-jitsu the same way as I like pubic hair on a lady"

DEFEATED IN AL

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 16:45

Furry muff, in 4hrs you ain't really gonna learn much, but show them a couple of moves to practice in their own time, between classes, and they will get somewhere.

I'm quite sure a woman afraid of getting raped will put in some of her own time. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Fenon

Regular

25 posts

Tuesday 24th February 2004 at 22:08

Yeah I guess, but if a woman really wants to learn to defend herself a few lesson aren't going to help her again someone with any training in combat.

Robsco

1319 posts

Wednesday 25th February 2004 at 07:26

True, but not many rapists are training fighters. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Branni

Newbie

11 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:33

The only decent thing said on this topic was by bassmonger. Very funny. :-)

Andy i know you train under Royce Gracie and He and his bro Rorian are making plenty of money from the "rape safe" video, but come on has Rorian ever been raped by a man?

The only people who know what its like to be raped are the poor victims (women) out there!
Pick a subject that no one has bothered with (which is terrible) and make plenty of money from it! Rorion is a smart business man!

How can you say Brazilian jiu jitsu is the answer to stopping a woman being raped by a man(who may be untrained himself) especially if she is untrained? Your being blinded by the art! There are untrained men and women out there that would rip you a new a***hole and bite your face off regardless of how many hours you put into martial arts! The answer is simple rape will never be prevented unless all women walk round within an electric forcefield(we all know this is pur fantasy) to frazzle all the sick tw*ts who do such horrible things. I think women should stick to animal instincts and rip scratch and bite the sh*t out of the attackers, as the chances are the attacker will do anything to rape the poor victim.

Real life is real life and not what you see in the UFC or in a dojo/club. I'm a huge fan of martial arts but i know turning women into technique robots won't help!

" There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger"

" There is no moment you are m

andy

Resident

729 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:49

Easy there tiger! I dont train under Rorian, of course an untrained women can't defend herself duh! I'm all for teaching what works and avoidance is the best key, but if it comes to it and the woman is on her back she needs options to help her escape, this is where BJJ comes in, i'm not talking about fancy arm bars and the like, i'm talking about learning how to stand up safely from the position and escape. Scratching will just annoy the attacker. Confidence is also key, attackers pick victims that appear weak. By giving women a few essential skills such as basic awareness, and basic self defence this gives confidence.

I'd like to meet the woman who could rip me a new arse hole.

now stop being aggressive and think about what i just posted. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

andy

Resident

729 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:54

PS. Stop talking about people being untrained, the whole point was to find something to teach (train) the students in.

Keys to self defence
1. Awareness and avoidance (never get in the situation)
2. The fence and escape (deal with stand up aggression)
3. Bjj (to learn how to escape a ground situation) pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

andy

Resident

729 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 21:54

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Branni

Newbie

11 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 22:24

Hope i didn't upset to many people andy i just thought i'd throw some petrol on the fire to liven things up a bit!

Thats complete rubbish that untrained women can't defend themselves! Does the whole animal kingdom go and train in jiu jitsu? NO!UNTRAINED Females can protect themselves against Males.

You can train as much as you want but it won't change a persons instinct when the shit hits the fan! I know all sorts of moves from thai boxing and jiu jitsu but i can honestly say i've never used them in a street fight. You have no time for techniques, it's whoever hits fastest and hardest that wins. The same is with rape do whatever to escape but leave the techniques in the dojo.

I agree about trying to get up and run away and use anything that makes this possible is the best option, but natural instincts are the best forms of getting someone off you!
You say scratches only make attackers angry, which is very true and thats what you want to happen! You don't want to be best mates DUH!

If i scratch your eyes it will do more than tickle! As i said scratching, biting, and groin attacks are all natural and require NO SKILL so i believe the wool should stop being pulled over womens eyes just to make money!

" There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger"

" There is no moment you are m

Robsco

1319 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 22:58

Yes, scratching will get the attacker angry, and obviously just make him go totally ballistic and probably kill the woman! Think about it dude!

If you've got some guy on top of you, scratching and biting isn't gonna make him get off, he'll just lay some punishment down.

If you have some BASIC techniques to deal with the situation and escape, that's obviously gonna be a lot better than getting the crap beat out of you.

As for Rorion being a good business man, true, and so what?

He's a good business man because he's teaching things that work, and helping a LOT of people in scary situations. Let's face it, if it didn't work, it wouldn't take long for word get round!

And remember what Andy said, it has a LOT to do with confidence, just knowing that you can deal with situations will stop people even thinking about because of your attitude. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Fenon

Regular

25 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 23:29

If scratching and biting did any good then there would be no need for self defence. Heck screw then need for fighters to have technique, they should all scratch and bite their way out of submission holds!!

Branni

Newbie

11 posts

Thursday 26th February 2004 at 23:50

I will have my final word dude and say WAKE UP!

i have been biten in fights and had people gouge and scratch my eyes and i can tell you truthfully in one fight i had, i was on top of a guy giving him the good news(not raping) and he bit my fingers and my chest then stuck his finger in my eye(as well as scratching) and i can tell you it didn't make me angry nor did it tickle! It fucking wrecked as fingers arent supposed to be in eyes!

What would a wild animal do if you cornered it or got to close? It would chew you to bits, not do a fancy sweep or manouver! Are you trying to tell me that being biten would make you angry? BOLLOCKS! You would need a clean pair of underpants and you'd stay well away, so don't tell me it's different if a women bites a man or gouges his eyes, it's exactly the same! FLIGHT or FIGHT! You obviously have never been biten as your just following the shephard like the rest of the sheep and the shepard is Rorion Gracie. The thought of rape would soon dissapeer when the victim is taking chunks out of the attackers body and face and then starts trying to poke his eyes into the back of his skull.

You live in a fairytale world if you think jiu jitsu is better than instinct for rape defense or street fighting!

Yes Rorion Gracie is a very successful business man and all the credit to him! I'm as much a fan of the Gracies as anyone but the rapesafe stuff is just ripping people off. You obviously have never been involved in street problems as you think jiu jitsu is the key to success! It is in a competition, clubs, dojos and movies and especially quality of life but in the real world on the street be it fighting or rape prevention it is just another money spinner and will continue to keep the wool over womens eyes as well as yours. " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger"

" There is no moment you are m

Robsco

1319 posts

Friday 27th February 2004 at 00:09

Well you waffle far too much, it's late and I can't be arsed to write an essay.

Biting and scratching is not good self-defence, it is a last resort. You'll be suggesting rolling up a magazine next! --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Branni

Newbie

11 posts

Friday 27th February 2004 at 00:10

FENOM we are talking about reality fights and rape defence not UFC and competition fights! You obviously no nothing about real fighting! The reason why we all train techniques is because the real stuff that works is illegal and can seriously hurt people! Plus it keeps you fit and is a hobby. Lots of people even have an ego about having a BLACK BELT. At the end of the day it only holds your pants up!

Thats why it's band from all sports competitions around the world and so is eye gouging and groin strikes(hitting the bollocks)!

Are these techniques illegal because they are rubbish? NO it's because they fucking hurt and can cause severe injuries!

Why doesnt the animal kingdom do jiu jitsu? Because biting is real! And so is making someone blind by going for his eyes!

Why do you think biting and eye gouging in the street gets worse punishment by the law than normal fighting? Because they know it's dangerous and can seriously harm someone!!!!!!

The whole point of this subject is rape defense, and i'm sorry but reality wins over technique in the street!

WAKE UP!!!!!!!! " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger"

" There is no moment you are m

Branni

Newbie

11 posts

Friday 27th February 2004 at 00:23

Robsco you need to sort yourself out! The topic is rape defense and i'm sorry to upset your little world but rape in my case deserves your so called last resort tactics which are very deserved by the attacker if he is trying to RAPE a poor inosent woman! Jump back on the Jiu jitsu bandwagon and live in dream land!

If someone ever bites you in a street fight remember to shout "Thats not fair" while your nose is hanging off and see if he gives a shit!
Then when you have plastic surgery invite the guy round and explain that in your jiu jitsu rule book it says biting isnt allowed!

Your just another sheep following the shepard! " There is no moment you are more aware of being alive than when confronted with immediate, imminent danger"

" There is no moment you are m