effectiveness of jujitsu

Author	Comments
crazymofo55 Regular 41 posts	Monday 13th December 2004 at 05:21 I respect the fact that jujitsu is an ancient, traditional art, but I don't believe by itself it is most effective in actual combat. What jujitsu does have in it's favor is that it is very well versed in throws and submissions, but I believe it is ineffective in standing combat compared to styles such as kickboxing and greco roman wrestling. I'm just calling it as I see it... The technique section of this site has demonstrations where I notice that their hands are too far apart to protect from upper-cuts to the chin. In the example of an uppercut defense the attacker uses a very low and separated starting position to throw uppercuts. A boxer will come in low and seemingly impenitrible with body weight and minimal arm movement to throw this punch. The second fault I noticed is the straight standing stance that is taken to preform these moves, where during a staight punch to the head the attacker will position on the ball of the foot. This would leave an experienced wrestler wide open for a level drop followed by a double leg tackle. There are some restrictions in the physical aspect of these punches just based on the stance. If a punch is at the waist traveling toward the head then it will have to travel a further distance then a boxer's punch that will travel from the shoulder. Also since the elbows are further away from the body and the hands are far away from protecting the chin there is a venerability to hooks to the head and body. Then take in account the shear distance required to protect the midsection from knee strikes. There is also in the technique section no tactics vs any of the clinch positions, which is a little disappointing because some of the kickboxing and wrestling's arsenal involves clinching. This will be common in a real fight. I believe the most practical stance in combat is feet shoulder width, with an instep, but square to attack and defend level changes and provide maximum lateral mobility. The hands should be next to the chin with elbows tucked in to protect the body and set up level changes, chin down, shoulders rolled slightly forward. A stance with mixed concepts of boxing/wrestling..... Watch for example how a fighter like Randy Cotour stands and sets up his wrestling techniques with a constant threat of not necessarily fast or powerful strikes, but efficient striking. He outpunched Chuck Liddel because his hands were too low and far apart to defend against all those straight jabs. Partially this weakness was due to a conflict with the nature of his kickboxing with the desire to be catious against Cotour's takedowns. This is not jujitsu; however, but it's a similar weakness to that in the example... I'm not saying that jujitsu is lame because many successful MMA fighters are jujitsu, but more often then other styles they end up on their back or self takedown due to being outpunched. If they were as effective at standing striking and takedown defense as they are submissions from the guard and mount it would be the only form of martial arts one would need to learn.
urban_samurai Newbie 14 posts	Monday 13th December 2004 at 13:13 I haven't been doing ju jitsu that long but what i do know is you have to make it work for you because everyone is different and also alot depends on your instructor, he/she must apply locks and throws etc to typical street sitations so that when the time comes and you have defend your self you can do so effectively.
Dave Addict 183 posts	Monday 13th December 2004 at 13:44 My God Mofo i think you just invented 'Cross Training'!;-) Write into a magazine and let them know asap.;-) Every style has weaknesses, so go out and train in many styles and take out what you feel works and then tailor it to your needs. P.S. Jiu jitsu is very effective if used correctly. And is a great base to work from. Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post
sl Resident 855 posts	Monday 13th December 2004 at 17:46 Ju Jitsu is very effective. The best advice is take what you can from what you do for example the strikes are crap in JJ so do some Muay Thai combine the two and learn what you can. ______________________________
sl Resident 855 posts	Monday 13th December 2004 at 20:05 Whats this Robsco another new feature? Do we have a swear list now ? shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit ______________________________
crazymofo55 Regular 41 posts	Monday 13th December 2004 at 21:15 I was trying to enlighten about the necessity of cross training, yes. There is a misconception about these martial art schools that a traditional style is combat optimal and this is not only dangerous, but is impeding the understanding and progress of true combat effective martial arts. When I see the techniques on this site I see SOME stances and maneuvers (others are very effective) that one would only use in some studio spending money on a trainer who is either bsing about it being combat optimal or may be unintentially sending this message to those who take classes to learn "self defense". Open handed self defense in itself is often a gross distortion of reality. My concern is that one without real experience in actual combat may believe that techniques they have learned under traditional form are combat optimal. This is not true. I see users in this very forum with this misconception. It's disturbing really. Alot of these techniques are meant for form only or restricted to a set of competition rules. Most likely the techniques are also not taught under realistic conditions, therefore this causes two unfortunate results. For one this can cause the true combat effectiveness of Eastern arts to be lost in a shuffle of flashy techniques that are obviously impractical in combat and for two it can draw attention away from the simpler yet effective Western styles such as boxing and wrestling. There's plenty of frauds out there looking to make some cash off anyone out there thinking real life is like an episode of Kung Fu The Legend Continues. There are ones who seem to feed into this in this very forum. My goal is to get these tactics properly filtered out and labeled by there original intent preferebly by the ones trying to teach them, but with all the money involved I'm not holding my breath. ;-) If a technique will not work in at least some sort of no holds barred competition I want it to be made perfectly clear that this is FORM. If it will work under set of rules, assuming certain conditions this is SPORT. If it suggests any kind of self defense other then finding a weapon or running this is BS. My last post was to separate what I thought was form from sport and how this adaptation could be made from one to the other. This is only my best speculation though. I would be open minded a more effective strategy if someone else has something to say. The integration of styles is something that should be discussed more between martial artists. Closed mindedness and arguements about style superiority is what is holding the pregression of martial arts back. In a way MMA competition solved some of these disputes though.
Bassmonger Resident 198 posts	Monday 13th December 2004 at 22:56 Damn, I can't believe I messed that uppercut up. DEFEATED IN AL
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 00:30 Sl, fraid so, but looking to change the usual swear words for something a little more interesting rather than characters... Just waiting for the Bassmonger to supply them for all situations. :-D The Admin Guy
Ryu Regular 47 posts	Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 12:02 Mofo raises some interesting points. Mofo, what would you say to the argument that the traditional arts are quite intricate and take a long time and much practice to master, whereas some of the newer combat styles will have you battle ready in much less time. If you were to put novices of the two forms together the traditional chap may well take a beating, it may however be a different story once a level of mastery is acheived. I have seen that with certain MA forms, mastery is acheived by getting progressively more aggressive. Whereas in JJ mastery comes with a better understanding of movement, observation of your adversary, motion and attack vectors and recognition of what your adversary may or may not be able to accomplish in a given circumstance. While there is a limit to how aggressive one can get there is practically no limit on intuition and tacticality that can be applied to a combat situation. Dont get me wrong, i'm putting any of the disciplines down, I think theyre all good, and all have their own strengths, and come into their own under different circumstances, and are suited to different people. However it takes longer for an individual to become 'competent' with some of the more traditional MA's, this does not detract from the effectiveness of the practitioner once that level is reached. Just a few thoughts. Could be wrong, havent been at it long enough to be authoritative.... ;-) Ken is good, but Ryu is bett
crazymofo55 Regular 41 posts	Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 14:40 Alot of these martial art styles have there own rules so actually no matter how much a person trains in them they will never be combat optimal enough for MMA competition or fair fights in real life situations. If an art is meant for form to impress judges, even with a black belt and everything they will never learn real fighting. If they believe that this is meant for combat that may even be worse if they just never trained in that art because they got the wrong idea about how a fight works. A person with no training and just more common sense might be able to beat them. So how can you tell what works and not? Well, watch a whole lot of fights and actually pay attention to what is going on and preferably spar with a real opponent. If what you do doesn't work you'll either experience a little pain or tap out. Learn from this. If a fighter you see in the ring makes a mistake you'll see them getting KO'd or tapping out. Learn from this too so you'll know what else to look out for. Notice that in no holds barred there isn't a whole lot of sumo, kung fu, or jeet kune do fighters in there. And if you wanna know self defense learn how to run or how to use a knife or how to shoot a gun or if all else fails eyes, nuts, and throat. Don't try to get cute and go Bruce Lee in front of a guy at Joe's Bar and Funeral Home. Give the robber your car keys. Let the hostage negotiators do their job....
sl Resident 855 posts	Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 17:18 Didn't think there where any rules in a street fight? I havent been doing Trad JJ for very long but alot of what is taught at least at my club is very street orientated i think it depends on the club mine is very traditional but really heavy on the street self defence. The only question i raise is what use is a Kata? And why are they taught? ______________________________
Kieran Regular 107 posts	Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 18:52 Look guys I practise TJJ mainly as a passtime and it also keeps me fit.I come from a karate background but would find tjj more defencesive than attacking. Now i,ve nothing against bjj or any other ma or mixing arts and I wouldnt say one is better than the other.Just do what you enjoy. But to suggest jujitsu doesnt work now thats a big statement to make.Where does in not work...In a mixed MA tournament?..........In self defence?........In a jujitsu tournment?....I seen this sort of B.S. no offence from different instructors,different dojos and all those narrowed minded instructors cant see past there own style. I,m not a street fighter and i,m not going to proclaim that jujitsu is unbeatable on the street.But it has got me out of a few situations without me getting hurt or facing assult charges. WE BOW IN RESPECT NEVER IN SUBMISSION
Ryu Regular 47 posts	Wednesday 15th December 2004 at 09:47 Good point Kieran, could't agree more...:-D Ken is good, but Ryu is bett
trevek2 Addict 119 posts	Wednesday 29th December 2004 at 09:00 I've only seen a bit of BJJ and I've only recently started TJJ after doing TKD (wow, do people actually grab your legs in real life?). However, an honest question from a newbie (also i read an article asking the question), how does BJJ work against multiple attackers? If you're on the ground doing some fancy hold does it not allow the other guys to practice their football moves on you? I imagine the best thing is not to go to ground in such a situation, but what alternatives does BJJ offer? See how well I block all your
sl Resident 855 posts	Wednesday 29th December 2004 at 11:12 Run Run Run thats my advice if your on the floor get up and then run.............. If you cant get up protect your vitals till you can then Run.. I personally dont think BJJ would be good for a multiple attack type situation but could be wrong. If its multiple attackers id be tempted to whack who i could as quick as i could then RUN RUN RUN. But if its one on one i can feel the benefit of taking them down and breaking there arm or something... Suppose it depends where your comfortable... Should running be a part of any MA syllabus? ______________________________

Author

Comments

Regular

41 posts

Monday 13th December 2004 at 05:21

I respect the fact that jujitsu is an ancient, traditional art, but I don't believe by itself it is most effective in actual combat. What jujitsu does have in it's favor is that it is very well versed in throws and submissions, but I believe it is ineffective in standing combat compared to styles such as kickboxing and greco roman wrestling. I'm just calling it as I see it... The technique section of this site has demonstrations where I notice that their hands are too far apart to protect from upper-cuts to the chin. In the example of an uppercut defense the attacker uses a very low and separated starting position to throw uppercuts. A boxer will come in low and seemingly impenitrible with body weight and minimal arm movement to throw this punch.
The second fault I noticed is the straight standing stance that is taken to preform these moves, where during a staight punch to the head the attacker will position on the ball of the foot. This would leave an experienced wrestler wide open for a level drop followed by a double leg tackle.
There are some restrictions in the physical aspect of these punches just based on the stance. If a punch is at the waist traveling toward the head then it will have to travel a further distance then a boxer's punch that will travel from the shoulder. Also since the elbows are further away from the body and the hands are far away from protecting the chin there is a venerability to hooks to the head and body. Then take in account the shear distance required to protect the midsection from knee strikes.
There is also in the technique section no tactics vs any of the clinch positions, which is a little disappointing because some of the kickboxing and wrestling's arsenal involves clinching. This will be common in a real fight.
I believe the most practical stance in combat is feet shoulder width, with an instep, but square to attack and defend level changes and provide maximum lateral mobility. The hands should be next to the chin with elbows tucked in to protect the body and set up level changes, chin down, shoulders rolled slightly forward. A stance with mixed concepts of boxing/wrestling.....
Watch for example how a fighter like Randy Cotour stands and sets up his wrestling techniques with a constant threat of not necessarily fast or powerful strikes, but efficient striking. He outpunched Chuck Liddel because his hands were too low and far apart to defend against all those straight jabs. Partially this weakness was due to a conflict with the nature of his kickboxing with the desire to be catious against Cotour's takedowns. This is not jujitsu; however, but it's a similar weakness to that in the example...
I'm not saying that jujitsu is lame because many successful MMA fighters are jujitsu, but more often then other styles they end up on their back or self takedown due to being outpunched. If they were as effective at standing striking and takedown defense as they are submissions from the guard and mount it would be the only form of martial arts one would need to learn.

urban_samurai

Newbie

14 posts

Monday 13th December 2004 at 13:13

I haven't been doing ju jitsu that long but what i do know is you have to make it work for you because everyone is different and also alot depends on your instructor, he/she must apply locks and throws etc to typical street sitations so that when the time comes and you have defend your self you can do so effectively.

Dave

Addict

183 posts

Monday 13th December 2004 at 13:44

My God Mofo i think you just invented 'Cross Training'!;-)

Write into a magazine and let them know asap.;-)

Every style has weaknesses, so go out and train in many styles and take out what you feel works and then tailor it to your needs.

P.S. Jiu jitsu is very effective if used correctly. And is a great base to work from.

Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Post

Resident

855 posts

Monday 13th December 2004 at 17:46

Ju Jitsu is very effective. The best advice is take what you can from what you do for example the strikes are crap in JJ so do some Muay Thai combine the two and learn what you can.

______________________________

Resident

855 posts

Monday 13th December 2004 at 20:05

Whats this Robsco another new feature? Do we have a swear list now ?

shit shit shit shit shit shit shit shit

______________________________

crazymofo55

Regular

41 posts

Monday 13th December 2004 at 21:15

I was trying to enlighten about the necessity of cross training, yes. There is a misconception about these martial art schools that a traditional style is combat optimal and this is not only dangerous, but is impeding the understanding and progress of true combat effective martial arts. When I see the techniques on this site I see SOME stances and maneuvers (others are very effective) that one would only use in some studio spending money on a trainer who is either bsing about it being combat optimal or may be unintentially sending this message to those who take classes to learn "self defense". Open handed self defense in itself is often a gross distortion of reality.
My concern is that one without real experience in actual combat may believe that techniques they have learned under traditional form are combat optimal. This is not true. I see users in this very forum with this misconception. It's disturbing really.
Alot of these techniques are meant for form only or restricted to a set of competition rules. Most likely the techniques are also not taught under realistic conditions, therefore this causes two unfortunate results. For one this can cause the true combat effectiveness of Eastern arts to be lost in a shuffle of flashy techniques that are obviously impractical in combat and for two it can draw attention away from the simpler yet effective Western styles such as boxing and wrestling. There's plenty of frauds out there looking to make some cash off anyone out there thinking real life is like an episode of Kung Fu The Legend Continues. There are ones who seem to feed into this in this very forum.
My goal is to get these tactics properly filtered out and labeled by there original intent preferebly by the ones trying to teach them, but with all the money involved I'm not holding my breath. ;-) If a technique will not work in at least some sort of no holds barred competition I want it to be made perfectly clear that this is FORM. If it will work under set of rules, assuming certain conditions this is SPORT. If it suggests any kind of self defense other then finding a weapon or running this is BS. My last post was to separate what I thought was form from sport and how this adaptation could be made from one to the other. This is only my best speculation though. I would be open minded a more effective strategy if someone else has something to say. The integration of styles is something that should be discussed more between martial artists. Closed mindedness and arguements about style superiority is what is holding the pregression of martial arts back. In a way MMA competition solved some of these disputes though.

Bassmonger

Resident

198 posts

Monday 13th December 2004 at 22:56

Damn, I can't believe I messed that uppercut up.

DEFEATED IN AL

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 00:30

Sl, fraid so, but looking to change the usual swear words for something a little more interesting rather than characters...

Just waiting for the Bassmonger to supply them for all situations. :-D

The Admin Guy

Ryu

Regular

47 posts

Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 12:02

Mofo raises some interesting points. Mofo, what would you say to the argument that the traditional arts are quite intricate and take a long time and much practice to master, whereas some of the newer combat styles will have you battle ready in much less time.

If you were to put novices of the two forms together the traditional chap may well take a beating, it may however be a different story once a level of mastery is acheived.

I have seen that with certain MA forms, mastery is acheived by getting progressively more aggressive. Whereas in JJ mastery comes with a better understanding of movement, observation of your adversary, motion and attack vectors and recognition of what your adversary may or may not be able to accomplish in a given circumstance. While there is a limit to how aggressive one can get there is practically no limit on intuition and tacticality that can be applied to a combat situation.

Dont get me wrong, i'm putting any of the disciplines down, I think theyre all good, and all have their own strengths, and come into their own under different circumstances, and are suited to different people. However it takes longer for an individual to become 'competent' with some of the more traditional MA's, this does not detract from the effectiveness of the practitioner once that level is reached.

Just a few thoughts. Could be wrong, havent been at it long enough to be authoritative.... ;-)

Ken is good, but Ryu is bett

crazymofo55

Regular

41 posts

Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 14:40

Alot of these martial art styles have there own rules so actually no matter how much a person trains in them they will never be combat optimal enough for MMA competition or fair fights in real life situations. If an art is meant for form to impress judges, even with a black belt and everything they will never learn real fighting. If they believe that this is meant for combat that may even be worse if they just never trained in that art because they got the wrong idea about how a fight works. A person with no training and just more common sense might be able to beat them.
So how can you tell what works and not? Well, watch a whole lot of fights and actually pay attention to what is going on and preferably spar with a real opponent. If what you do doesn't work you'll either experience a little pain or tap out. Learn from this. If a fighter you see in the ring makes a mistake you'll see them getting KO'd or tapping out. Learn from this too so you'll know what else to look out for. Notice that in no holds barred there isn't a whole lot of sumo, kung fu, or jeet kune do fighters in there.
And if you wanna know self defense learn how to run or how to use a knife or how to shoot a gun or if all else fails eyes, nuts, and throat. Don't try to get cute and go Bruce Lee in front of a guy at Joe's Bar and Funeral Home. Give the robber your car keys. Let the hostage negotiators do their job....

Resident

855 posts

Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 17:18

Didn't think there where any rules in a street fight? I havent been doing Trad JJ for very long but alot of what is taught at least at my club is very street orientated i think it depends on the club mine is very traditional but really heavy on the street self defence.

The only question i raise is what use is a Kata? And why are they taught?

______________________________

Kieran

Regular

107 posts

Tuesday 14th December 2004 at 18:52

Look guys I practise TJJ mainly as a passtime and it also keeps me fit.I come from a karate background but would find tjj more defencesive than attacking.
Now i,ve nothing against bjj or any other ma or mixing arts and I wouldnt say one is better than the other.Just do what you enjoy.
But to suggest jujitsu doesnt work now thats a big statement to make.Where does in not work...In a mixed MA tournament?..........In self defence?........In a jujitsu tournment?....I seen this sort of B.S. no offence from different instructors,different dojos and all those narrowed minded instructors cant see past there own style.
I,m not a street fighter and i,m not going to proclaim that jujitsu is unbeatable on the street.But it has got me out of a few situations without me getting hurt or facing assult charges.

WE BOW IN RESPECT NEVER IN SUBMISSION

Ryu

Regular

47 posts

Wednesday 15th December 2004 at 09:47

Good point Kieran, could't agree more...:-D

Ken is good, but Ryu is bett

trevek2

Addict

119 posts

Wednesday 29th December 2004 at 09:00

I've only seen a bit of BJJ and I've only recently started TJJ after doing TKD (wow, do people actually grab your legs in real life?). However, an honest question from a newbie (also i read an article asking the question), how does BJJ work against multiple attackers? If you're on the ground doing some fancy hold does it not allow the other guys to practice their football moves on you? I imagine the best thing is not to go to ground in such a situation, but what alternatives does BJJ offer?

See how well I block all your

Resident

855 posts

Wednesday 29th December 2004 at 11:12

Run Run Run thats my advice if your on the floor get up and then run.............. If you cant get up protect your vitals till you can then Run.. I personally dont think BJJ would be good for a multiple attack type situation but could be wrong.

If its multiple attackers id be tempted to whack who i could as quick as i could then RUN RUN RUN. But if its one on one i can feel the benefit of taking them down and breaking there arm or something... Suppose it depends where your comfortable...

Should running be a part of any MA syllabus?

______________________________