a little help, please

Author	Comments
chip Newbie 1 posts	Monday 9th February 2004 at 18:04 i work for a runaway center, and teach self-defense to our volunteers in my agency and many others. it is not anything incredibly difficult - mainly simple manuevers and strikes to escape a situation. the sessions at other agencies or in the community are only one day for 4 hours - i know you all share my frustration with the time constraints. many of the volunteers, co-workers, and community members that attend the sessions are female. an alarming wave of sexual assaults and rapes have occured in a very short time, and many of my students are terrified for their safety. i have been hit with a barrage of requests for ways to escape a rape situation - i.e., the female is flat on her back, and the male is attempting to penetrate her. the size, weight, and strength differences between my participants is incredibly broad, but the women weigh considerably less than the men. keeping in mind the brief period of training sessions, could anyone help me strategize methods to escape this situation (especially how petite females (many of my female students are 120 pounds or so - or so at least that's what they tell me! j.k.) could manuever out of being pinned by a much heavier and stronger opponent?
Robsco 1319 posts	Monday 9th February 2004 at 21:31 You're talking about the Guard position, there are techniques on this site in the Brazilian section for that. It's actually a more dominant position to be on the bottom if you have your legs wrapped around your attacker, and there are literally thousands of attacks and sweeps. So if you know what you're doing, you don't have a lot to worry about when caught in that position. There are three arm-locks in the techniques section from the Guard : Arm-Bar, Kimura and Oma-Plata, along with 9 chokes, and 2 sweeps to reverse the position. Just make sure everyone drills the techniques as much as possible, and doesn't try to use strength to pull them off, they are incredibly simple and effective moves, if you feel yourself using strength then you're doing it wrong. Let us know how you get on. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
andy Resident 729 posts	Tuesday 10th February 2004 at 12:19 wrong, the main objective for the woman is to escape not try a fancy armlock or such. there is a way to stand up safely from the bottom position. it is available on the rapesafe video by rorion gracie or you could come and train with me!! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Robsco 1319 posts	Tuesday 10th February 2004 at 23:00 Obviously the main idea is to escape, I was purely getting the idea across that the Guard is a powerful position, and not one to be worried abt. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
andy Resident 729 posts	Wednesday 11th February 2004 at 21:32 obviously everyone should train gracie jiu jitsu!!!!!!!!! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Robsco 1319 posts	Thursday 12th February 2004 at 06:05 well...OBVIOUSLY! Royce Seminar Details? --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Wave Newbie 3 posts	Thursday 12th February 2004 at 06:35 Hi Any type of arm bar etc in this situation is absolutely ludicrous. A well trained and competent MA would struggle to make that work, let alone a small female with minimal to no training. Anyone who teaches that type of self defence is deluded and dangerous to their students. Her chances of survival are fairly slim. She has to be as nasty and vicious as humanly possible. Bite, rip, tear, gouge at anything and everything as hard and fast and brutal as possible.
andy Resident 729 posts	Thursday 12th February 2004 at 17:28 WTF!!! who are you? ever seen UFC? pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Robsco 1319 posts	Thursday 12th February 2004 at 17:34 "absolutely ludicrous" - for you, or everyone? "A well trained and competent MA would struggle to make that work" - that must be why it's such a common move, because it's so hard! Any move is simple if you drill it enough and have it become second nature, and against someone who dunt know what the hell you're doing, it just gets easier. What would you suggest? try and escape and have them coming back after you? If you can break an arm or choke someone out cold do it, then walk away. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Sir Moonface Regular 26 posts	Thursday 12th February 2004 at 20:18 Lets all go to the Wave school of self defence. Where instead of getting raped, you'll probably get murdered or something aswell. Your comments are both unhelpful and pointless.
steve Resident 217 posts	Friday 13th February 2004 at 13:05 Bottom line is that a with a strong man on top of a lightweight woman she is at his mercy. If she tries to manoever or fight from underneath he is likely to beat up on her with his fists, head or anything else if he is a nutter....she has no escape! She submits and survives a beating or she fights back, may fend off the 'penetration' but gets well battered in the process. Only real defence is to not get taken to the floor in the first place, or to attract the attention of others to defend her...sorry if that is not what they wish to hear, but its the honest truth! "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
Wave Newbie 3 posts	Friday 13th February 2004 at 21:37 Hi, Yes I have seen UFC and it does not resemble a big strong man raping a small untrained woman. So the correlation is difficult to make. You say that if it is trained enough then it can be done. Agree 100%. BUT, the original post was for an UNTRAINED small woman against a big man trying to rape her. Be honest enough to admit that unless she is very lucky in her attempts to fight back she will get raped.
andy Resident 729 posts	Sunday 15th February 2004 at 10:27 ok, untrained, armbars dont work, untrained nothing works. the guy is talking about techniques to teach people, also known as training them. Steve: You would like the girl in question (could be your daughter) to lie there and get raped to save getting beaten up? The rapesafe course by rorian teaches SIMPLE terchniques and escapes from these positions not fancy armlocks, it also goes into avoidance and awareness training. EVERYONE SHOULD TRAIN GRACIE JIU JITSU!!!!!!!! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Alien Newbie 20 posts	Monday 16th February 2004 at 17:10 I have to agree with the BJJ boyz on this one. Drill it hard enough and this will probably work. Add eye attacks and bites and this becomes very effective. A guy in pain won't generally hang around and bring attention to himself. "hell ain't a bad place to be" "hell ain't a bad place to be"
Robsco 1319 posts	Monday 16th February 2004 at 22:10 Good lad Alien! :o) Steve : 'Bottom line is that a with a strong man on top of a lightweight woman she is at his mercy' - BJJ is all about size and strength being no object, especially in this situation. There is no mercy here, and with even just a FEW techniques from the BJJ arsenal, this is not an already failed mission. Even one arm-lock, one choke, or one sweep, drilled enough, could change the whole situation. And these are things people can do everyday in their own homes, I know I do, my training doesn't stop just because I'm at home. We're talking about some sad sadistic twat raping a woman here, some dude who hasn't got the first clue about what might happen to HIM. To chip, who posted this question, go and train at any certified Gracie Academy or atleast buy the RapeSafe video by Rorion Gracie. Okay it might cost a few bucks, but even yourself will be impressed - I'll personally gaurantee that! I've taught a few 'basic' moves to probably every girlfriend I've had in the last few years (and there's been a few before you start! :o) abt this exact situation and if nothing else, it gives them confidence, just knowing there is SOMETHING they can do, obviously confidence isn't all of it, but atleast knowing they're NOT at the mercy of an attacker kinda gives them the motivation to train the moves. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth' The Admin Guy
Alien Newbie 20 posts	Tuesday 17th February 2004 at 14:50 A good point Robsco. Also if a women appears confident doesn't act scared and faces up to an attacker this could also act as a escape. Putting doubt into an attackers head gives you the phychological edge before the attack has even begun A does he, does he not senario. Add to the fact the womoen knows self-defence (even a little) stands her in good stead. "hell ain't a bad place to be" "hell ain't a bad place to be"
steve Resident 217 posts	Wednesday 18th February 2004 at 13:20 Read your arguements so far, some good positive stuff and yes Andy I agree that training something will make you better than before you trained it and with that knowledge / skill a woman underneath might get lucky (would have to say more likely the sweep to get her free & run than an effective armbar or choke IMO). Alien, biting gouging etc is all good stuff (gets the distraction, hurts like hell, etc) but only if you can follow it up. My earlier point was that with a bigger, stronger man on top of a smaller weaker woman, and her being battered does have some dependancy on the man and his character. If he is just a sad 'cant get a woman' type, who normally is not very aggressive then the screaming, biting, scratching may get him to back off and run for fear of getting caught....however if he is an aggressive 'nutter' then a bite or gouge will raise his aggression and move the situation from him pinning the woman to hitting her. Robsco your comment about lighter person with good BJJ submitting larger with poor BJJ is valid...for BJJ. But not often that you will see a lightweight beating a heavier weight in NHB i.e. when G&P rules the floor (Rickson being exception to the rule),expecially it the NHB is just that...headbuts, elbows, knee drops, bites, gouges, scratches....real streetfighting), whilst stood up maybe cause the lighter guy's speed & movement will factor in. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog" "Its not the size of the dog i
andy Resident 729 posts	Wednesday 18th February 2004 at 22:36 you rarely see a small person defeat a large person in mma (nhb), because both fighters are trained, rapists are very rarely trained. i agree to stand up and get away is the best option, bu you need to know all the options. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"
Fenon Regular 25 posts	Sunday 22nd February 2004 at 00:19 I agree, with all but Wave (did you even see the bit about him/her teaching the moves?) I would also suggest looking into Wing Chun as it was designed by a woman, but that maybe more complex than just one or two moves.
andy Resident 729 posts	Monday 23rd February 2004 at 11:32 wing chun has no ground aspect, it's all straight line punches, it wont help when flat on your back! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com "no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Author

Comments

Newbie

1 posts

Monday 9th February 2004 at 18:04

i work for a runaway center, and teach self-defense to our volunteers in my agency and many others. it is not anything incredibly difficult - mainly simple manuevers and strikes to escape a situation. the sessions at other agencies or in the community are only one day for 4 hours - i know you all share my frustration with the time constraints.
many of the volunteers, co-workers, and community members that attend the sessions are female. an alarming wave of sexual assaults and rapes have occured in a very short time, and many of my students are terrified for their safety.
i have been hit with a barrage of requests for ways to escape a rape situation - i.e., the female is flat on her back, and the male is attempting to penetrate her. the size, weight, and strength differences between my participants is incredibly broad, but the women weigh considerably less than the men.
keeping in mind the brief period of training sessions, could anyone help me strategize methods to escape this situation (especially how petite females (many of my female students are 120 pounds or so - or so at least that's what they tell me! j.k.) could manuever out of being pinned by a much heavier and stronger opponent?

Robsco

1319 posts

Monday 9th February 2004 at 21:31

You're talking about the Guard position, there are techniques on this site in the Brazilian section for that. It's actually a more dominant position to be on the bottom if you have your legs wrapped around your attacker, and there are literally thousands of attacks and sweeps.

So if you know what you're doing, you don't have a lot to worry about when caught in that position.

There are three arm-locks in the techniques section from the Guard : Arm-Bar, Kimura and Oma-Plata, along with 9 chokes, and 2 sweeps to reverse the position.

Just make sure everyone drills the techniques as much as possible, and doesn't try to use strength to pull them off, they are incredibly simple and effective moves, if you feel yourself using strength then you're doing it wrong.

Let us know how you get on. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

andy

Resident

729 posts

Tuesday 10th February 2004 at 12:19

wrong, the main objective for the woman is to escape not try a fancy armlock or such. there is a way to stand up safely from the bottom position. it is available on the rapesafe video by rorion gracie or you could come and train with me!! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Robsco

1319 posts

Tuesday 10th February 2004 at 23:00

Obviously the main idea is to escape, I was purely getting the idea across that the Guard is a powerful position, and not one to be worried abt. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

andy

Resident

729 posts

Wednesday 11th February 2004 at 21:32

obviously everyone should train gracie jiu jitsu!!!!!!!!! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Robsco

1319 posts

Thursday 12th February 2004 at 06:05

well...OBVIOUSLY!

Royce Seminar Details? --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Wave

Newbie

3 posts

Thursday 12th February 2004 at 06:35

Hi

Any type of arm bar etc in this situation is absolutely ludicrous. A well trained and competent MA would struggle to make that work, let alone a small female with minimal to no training.

Anyone who teaches that type of self defence is deluded and dangerous to their students.

Her chances of survival are fairly slim. She has to be as nasty and vicious as humanly possible. Bite, rip, tear, gouge at anything and everything as hard and fast and brutal as possible.

andy

Resident

729 posts

Thursday 12th February 2004 at 17:28

WTF!!! who are you? ever seen UFC? pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Robsco

1319 posts

Thursday 12th February 2004 at 17:34

"absolutely ludicrous" - for you, or everyone?

"A well trained and competent MA would struggle to make that work" - that must be why it's such a common move, because it's so hard!

Any move is simple if you drill it enough and have it become second nature, and against someone who dunt know what the hell you're doing, it just gets easier.

What would you suggest? try and escape and have them coming back after you?

If you can break an arm or choke someone out cold do it, then walk away. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Sir Moonface

Regular

26 posts

Thursday 12th February 2004 at 20:18

Lets all go to the Wave school of self defence. Where instead of getting raped, you'll probably get murdered or something aswell. Your comments are both unhelpful and pointless.

steve

Resident

217 posts

Friday 13th February 2004 at 13:05

Bottom line is that a with a strong man on top of a lightweight woman she is at his mercy. If she tries to manoever or fight from underneath he is likely to beat up on her with his fists, head or anything else if he is a nutter....she has no escape! She submits and survives a beating or she fights back, may fend off the 'penetration' but gets well battered in the process. Only real defence is to not get taken to the floor in the first place, or to attract the attention of others to defend her...sorry if that is not what they wish to hear, but its the honest truth! "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

Wave

Newbie

3 posts

Friday 13th February 2004 at 21:37

Hi,
Yes I have seen UFC and it does not resemble a big strong man raping a small untrained woman. So the correlation is difficult to make. You say that if it is trained enough then it can be done. Agree 100%. BUT, the original post was for an UNTRAINED small woman against a big man trying to rape her.
Be honest enough to admit that unless she is very lucky in her attempts to fight back she will get raped.

andy

Resident

729 posts

Sunday 15th February 2004 at 10:27

ok, untrained, armbars dont work, untrained nothing works. the guy is talking about techniques to teach people, also known as training them.

Steve: You would like the girl in question (could be your daughter) to lie there and get raped to save getting beaten up? The rapesafe course by rorian teaches SIMPLE terchniques and escapes from these positions not fancy armlocks, it also goes into avoidance and awareness training.

EVERYONE SHOULD TRAIN GRACIE JIU JITSU!!!!!!!! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Alien

Newbie

20 posts

Monday 16th February 2004 at 17:10

I have to agree with the BJJ boyz on this one.

Drill it hard enough and this will probably work.

Add eye attacks and bites and this becomes very effective.

A guy in pain won't generally hang around and bring attention to himself. "hell ain't a bad place to be"

"hell ain't a bad place to be"

Robsco

1319 posts

Monday 16th February 2004 at 22:10

Good lad Alien! :o)

Steve : 'Bottom line is that a with a strong man on top of a lightweight woman she is at his mercy' - BJJ is all about size and strength being no object, especially in this situation.

There is no mercy here, and with even just a FEW techniques from the BJJ arsenal, this is not an already failed mission.

Even one arm-lock, one choke, or one sweep, drilled enough, could change the whole situation. And these are things people can do everyday in their own homes, I know I do, my training doesn't stop just because I'm at home.

We're talking about some sad sadistic twat raping a woman here, some dude who hasn't got the first clue about what might happen to HIM.

To chip, who posted this question, go and train at any certified Gracie Academy or atleast buy the RapeSafe video by Rorion Gracie. Okay it might cost a few bucks, but even yourself will be impressed - I'll personally gaurantee that!

I've taught a few 'basic' moves to probably every girlfriend I've had in the last few years (and there's been a few before you start! :o) abt this exact situation and if nothing else, it gives them confidence, just knowing there is SOMETHING they can do, obviously confidence isn't all of it, but atleast knowing they're NOT at the mercy of an attacker kinda gives them the motivation to train the moves. --------- Robsco! 'I'm sure your style is impressive on other planets, however, your weak link is that this is Earth'

The Admin Guy

Alien

Newbie

20 posts

Tuesday 17th February 2004 at 14:50

A good point Robsco.

Also if a women appears confident doesn't act scared and faces up to an attacker this could also act as a escape.

Putting doubt into an attackers head gives you the phychological edge before the attack has even begun

A does he, does he not senario.

Add to the fact the womoen knows self-defence (even a little) stands her in good stead. "hell ain't a bad place to be"

"hell ain't a bad place to be"

steve

Resident

217 posts

Wednesday 18th February 2004 at 13:20

Read your arguements so far, some good positive stuff and yes Andy I agree that training something will make you better than before you trained it and with that knowledge / skill a woman underneath might get lucky (would have to say more likely the sweep to get her free & run than an effective armbar or choke IMO). Alien, biting gouging etc is all good stuff (gets the distraction, hurts like hell, etc) but only if you can follow it up. My earlier point was that with a bigger, stronger man on top of a smaller weaker woman, and her being battered does have some dependancy on the man and his character. If he is just a sad 'cant get a woman' type, who normally is not very aggressive then the screaming, biting, scratching may get him to back off and run for fear of getting caught....however if he is an aggressive 'nutter' then a bite or gouge will raise his aggression and move the situation from him pinning the woman to hitting her.

Robsco your comment about lighter person with good BJJ submitting larger with poor BJJ is valid...for BJJ. But not often that you will see a lightweight beating a heavier weight in NHB i.e. when G&P rules the floor (Rickson being exception to the rule),expecially it the NHB is just that...headbuts, elbows, knee drops, bites, gouges, scratches....real streetfighting), whilst stood up maybe cause the lighter guy's speed & movement will factor in. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog"

"Its not the size of the dog i

andy

Resident

729 posts

Wednesday 18th February 2004 at 22:36

you rarely see a small person defeat a large person in mma (nhb), because both fighters are trained, rapists are very rarely trained.

i agree to stand up and get away is the best option, bu you need to know all the options. pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"

Fenon

Regular

25 posts

Sunday 22nd February 2004 at 00:19

I agree, with all but Wave (did you even see the bit about him/her teaching the moves?) I would also suggest looking into Wing Chun as it was designed by a woman, but that maybe more complex than just one or two moves.

andy

Resident

729 posts

Monday 23rd February 2004 at 11:32

wing chun has no ground aspect, it's all straight line punches, it wont help when flat on your back! pain is temporary, pride is forever. www.roycegraciesheffield.com

"no weapon formed against me shall prosper"